Bumped up for re-read -- interesting critique thread

Well one could not complain about getting something going on this poem, wow, sorry I missed it while it was going on.  Just an aside on photography. Most of the lenses back then didn't have aperture adjustments, so this was a long exposure at a wide open equivalent, f/stops or the alternate t-stops were far in the future.  Nice poem I have often wondered what the dynamics were of painter and model back then, i have done a ton of life drawings but in our correct modern times it is very technical and quite mundane.  Joe

James -- thanks

Hey Norm. 
 
His studio is where his love abides   
Through hidden visits, he makes love at will;   
 
Seems to me that the comma should go after abides.  yup -- you are correct
 
   
His naked model gazing where he hides   
Behind that curtain, viewing her so still.   
 
I have some trouble with this. If this is always meant to be read with the pic available no problem, but without the picture these two lines are odd just to read. If always with the picture, 'naked' need not be there. It is redundant. 'Behind the curtain' or some such thing. Behind that curtain sounds too common language. As does 'so'. 'Viewing her still'. I'll leave it to you to work on the meter. lol   Maybe a hyphen between 'her--still'.   I think it should be "the" not "that" and I do intend to always have the Delacroix pic with it (even when I submit it for publication)
 
 
   
Her take upon the pose he's placed her in,   
Reveals he is exposed as well...transfixed   
By ideal beauty cloaked beneath her skin.   
As model/artist sense their feelings mixed.   
 
'Her take' sounds too common language here as well. Too modern in this setting. It is as you say "too common" --I'd have to re-work the line -- but will attempt that

No comma after the 'in' in the first line. grey area -- I want the pause in the reading but grammatically no comma is needed -- have to ponder that -- I tend to go with YOUR deletion and leave it to the educated reader to properly intone what I am after

Line three we already know its a her, I'd use 'the skin' instead hmmm and it is more sensual as well  -- good suggestion (again)

. No need to keep referring directly to her is there? The reader knows. She's the only naked one. I think a colon or semi after 'skin' in line three, as line four is a continued thought, though separate from line 3. Yes? I'm no grammar expert not really, because the "as" makes that a subordinate clause and not a free-standing complete sentence. A semi-colon has to connect two complete sentences..   
   
He's touched...he longs to read her with his brush,   
Though spatial and the temporal forbid;   
The artist can do nothing more than hush   
The truth, which through his art he aptly hid.   
 
I have to agree with Michael about the sudden switch to painting and a paint brush Norm. Is he a photographer or a painter? Non sequitur. To me anyhow.   
Ahhh --- I knew when I penned this there would be conflict with interpretations --- I cannot disagree with you and Michael about the confusion. It all has to do with what is really layered beneath the model-artist real history. I will add to this thread sore of what I was after in this.  Yes, I need the duality to produce the real enigma of the scene before the reader as visual and in words. I'll try and flesh that out (no pun intended) when i write that. Your point is well taken.   
   
This reproduction, same as she was then   
Is sketched and etched into his life again. 
 
Comma after 'then'. correct 

I am a little at a loss how the photographer is able to view this when she has long since died and he has too. When I read this the first time that is what came to mind. And don't lose all the esoteric. There is a balance in there somewhere. I've started decrypting The Waste Land recently, you want to talk esoteric!! That poem defines the word in the definitive.  see my explanation when I post it.
 
I'm a little rushed but I said I'd stop by and make some comments, hope they are coherent.   
VERY coherent and ever-so helpful -- and presented in typical Jamesian mode of wanting to make my work better..Thanks again
 
Norm

Hey Norm.

His studio is where his love abides 
Through hidden visits, he makes love at will; 

Seems to me that the comma should go after abides. 

 
His naked model gazing where he hides   
Behind that curtain, viewing her so still.   

I have some trouble with this. If this is always meant to be read with the pic available no problem, but without the picture these two lines are odd just to read. If always with the picture, 'naked' need not be there. It is redundant. 'Behind the curtain' or some such thing. Behind that curtain sounds too common language. As does 'so'. 'Viewing her still'. I'll leave it to you to work on the meter. lol   Maybe a hyphen between 'her--still'. 


   
Her take upon the pose he's placed her in,   
Reveals he is exposed as well...transfixed 
By ideal beauty cloaked beneath her skin.   
As model/artist sense their feelings mixed. 

'Her take' sounds too common language here as well. Too modern in this setting. No comma after the 'in' in the first line. Line three we already know its a her, I'd use 'the skin' instead. No need to keep referring directly to her is there? The reader knows. She's the only naked one. I think a colon or semi after 'skin' in line three, as line four is a continued thought, though seperate from line 3. Yes? I'm no grammar expert.   
   
He's touched...he longs to read her with his brush,   
Though spatial and the temporal forbid;   
The artist can do nothing more than hush   
The truth, which through his art he aptly hid. 

I have to agree with Michael about the sudden switch to painting and a paint brush Norm. Is he a photographer or a painter? Non sequitor. To me anyhow.   
   
     This reproduction, same as she was then   
     Is sketched and etched into his life again.

Comma after 'then'.  I am a little at a loss how the photographer is able to view this when she has long since died and he has too. When I read this the first time that is what came to mind. And don't lose all the esoteric. There is a balance in there somewhere. I've started decrypting The Waste Land recently, you want to talk esoteric!! That poem defines the word in the difinitive. 

I'm a little rushed but I said I'd stop by and make some comments, hope they are coherent.  8)


James

Norm,

Now this is a much easier read. I don't have any issues with the first letters being capped. I think we have achieved a regular IP rhythm again. The patient is cured!

Doug

James,

I would be so glad to have you weigh in on this --- just please wait until Impost up a revision. Four noteworthy critters have already pointed out areas I need to "clean this up". Also, you have alwys been very helpful with your crityicisms of some of my work being too esoteric and leaving the reader with too much to deciper or guess about. Indications from my critics seem to think THAT argument also fits this piece.  But I "am in love with" the concept and want to "work it".  Please give me a day or two put my mind to re-visiting my vison for this.

Thanks,

Norm

"I thought the internet was flat...." - Tim -

Great line Tim!


Since discussion came up about honoring the language, can we honor William Shakespeare. His name isn't 'Willy'. We claim to be writers, how about honoring  a person who is mostly agreed on as the greatest writer the human race has ever produced. 

I'll come back and comment on your poem Norm. 


James

TIM,

Well put. About your editorial... thanks for the kind remarks about what I am trying to accomplish with this site.  I still think of EVERY forum as classroom and I really do not care how "gloves-off" it might be, there is NO cause for a teacher to demean a pupil. And if the teacher doesn't know he/she is doing it, ten when someone suggests he/she HAS, the tone should change --- the "school" has its style and objectives and "hires" teachers that share the same. "Messy" and "torturous" were what Michael "felt" so he expressed it as he felt it. But "feeling" something is not license to insult, abuse or reprimand in a way that drives a wedge between teacher and pupil...and THIS particular pupil is NOT in kindergarten either. I truly want hard-hitting crit --- I want it delivered with dignity and kindness. This poem may absolutely "stink" -- but get to the points of the stench without tossing out shock words that hurt...the critter is supposed to have a command of the language so an effort should be made to purge his comments of words and phrases he/she surely knows are painful and NOT instructive.

Some of us have lived through far worse than this where a critter (another Michael from way back) would go in thread and tell a 21 year old to give up writing, they stink, they'll never write anything of worth. The guy was quite brilliant and had a lot to offer but he caused so much friction he had to be asked to leave. That's the WORST degree. This example is nothing like that... but before it can grow to that...before others may get emboldened to start "ripping" poems and people with "nasty" adjectives, I though it proper to wave the red flag early. This is in a public thread (first) so that others see what I think can be perceived as a potential problem.

Be Moderate -- Be Considerate --- I could have learned all Michael had to tell me about what he perceived as flaws in this poem without hearing "messy" and "torturous" this is all subjective and POV --- a little more of "this is my opinion" and "I could be wrong, but" or "perceive it differently" is a softer way of saying "this sucks---clean it up." (that was a paraphrase for what one may hear when reading "messy", etc).

Now--Tim --- GREAT POINT on the "studio" -- "museum" is surely the wrong word for the wrong venue. Thank you so much. The painter would certainly NOT be there in a museum behind the curtain.

Now let's move on to other poems and if someone wishes to discuss the points involving "tone of critique" then I.M. me and note in your IM if I can share it with others or you want it totally private. I think we have all made our "public" points. We are in a Cafe where we offer up food for thought -- I want NO FOOD FIGHTS -- I want civil dialogue.

I will say THIS one more time -- I think Michael can be a real asset here at PT. His knowledge and input is what we are always looking for -- especially in Firebox.

Norm