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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Styles of Sonnet...the Petrarchan. (Read 204 times)
D. Allen Jenkins
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Waterproof Promises
Reply #23 - Apr 5th, 2006 at 9:22pm
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Waterproof Promises 
 
At times, we gazed toward heaven with our eyes 
so full of tears, it’s hard to tell if God 
is weeping too, or if we're left to trod 
this vacant path alone; no ears for cries 
of sorrow's loss; no chance to try again; 
no other hand beside our own to hold. 
Such rivers do not freeze, despite the cold 
despair that chills our soul and pales our skin. 
 
But God is waterproof, and faith will stand— 
enduring every flood that seeks to drown 
our joy or wash away the solid ground 
beneath our feet, destroying all we’ve planned. 
“I’m with you always, sunny days or brine; 
In all these things I’m yours and you are mine.” 
        
© D. Allen Jenkins
  
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Normpo
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Re: Styles of Sonnet...the Petrarchan.
Reply #22 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 11:41am
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Eric,

Bumping this up to get your subtle attention --- could you please answer Tim and Daniel's queries? They are interesting points, yes?

Norm
  
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Just_Daniel
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further re EBB...
Reply #21 - Mar 23rd, 2006 at 10:18pm
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... and while you're talking about EBB's example, I note that she has no 'e' rhyme at all, but her sestet rhymes cdcdcd.  Is that her "rebellion" or is that one of the rhyme schemes that you mention you'd forgotten among the 'permissible' ?

  
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Tim
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Re: Styles of Sonnet...the Petrarchan.
Reply #20 - Mar 19th, 2006 at 9:26am
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Norm or Eric,
I have another Petrarchan question. This may be more of style issue. In these examples by Browning and Milton the lines read together. In sonnets.org, they also read together. Some technique books i have break out the octave/octet and the sestet. Is that for instructional purposes so that the reader may see it clearly or do Italian sonnet writers sometimes break the two parts and editors repost/rewrite their form as they see fit?
Thanks,
tim
« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2006 at 11:39am by Normpo »  
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dericlee
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Re: Styles of Sonnet...the Petrarchan.
Reply #19 - Mar 11th, 2006 at 11:30pm
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Anyway, I would never have guessed you were athiest--


I keep forgetting to wear my sign.
  
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sierra
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Re: Styles of Sonnet...the Petrarchan.
Reply #18 - Feb 28th, 2006 at 8:37pm
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It was...but I renounced my ordination years ago, and am a very bitterly confirmed athiest, now.  

(I'll tell you about it another time and place if you really want to know...for now, let's just say I'd prefer to believe in nothing than in a diety that would let what I've seen happen.)



I think I spelled yoke wrong (after seeing it again)LOL!  I'm crackin' myself up Grin 

Anyway, I would never have guessed you were athiest--you Must have your reasons.
  
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dericlee
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Re: Styles of Sonnet...the Petrarchan.
Reply #17 - Feb 28th, 2006 at 4:18am
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That's very nice but must be quite a yolk to bear (holding that preacher's tongue, lol!)


It was...but I renounced my ordination years ago, and am a very bitterly confirmed athiest, now.   

(I'll tell you about it another time and place if you really want to know...for now, let's just say I'd prefer to believe in nothing than in a diety that would let what I've seen happen.)
  
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Re: Styles of Sonnet...the Petrarchan.
Reply #16 - Feb 28th, 2006 at 1:59am
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Thank You, Eric ~  I will wait patiently now and give your rock a chance to cool Smiley  I have been down with a flu or something that has had me very nauseated and dizzy for the last couple days and I've been talking and doing things under the influence of this cloud Sad  I just feel sick....so no more questions on this for now.  I've had this book that I never really read, but I pulled it out today--it is John Milton Complete Poems and Major Prose.  I don't even know how long I've had it.  I tried to read it on several occasions in past but all the references have me lost. 

A Doctorate in Divinity Studies?!  That's very nice but must be quite a yolk to bear (holding that preacher's tongue, lol!)  But feel free if you must Grin  My parents were such good preachers that they have brought on much as far as biblical associations go.  They followed Jesus more closely than anyone I have ever known Undecided   


  
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Normpo
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Re: Styles of Sonnet...the Petrarchan.
Reply #15 - Feb 27th, 2006 at 6:34pm
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Eric,

I am still learning .. 

regarding your statement about the replacement with a trochee or a spondee ... as  said, one of my very favorite sonnets is Milton's "On the Latte Massacre in Piedmont." That poem is a great example of the spondee being a deliberate tool of the poet.  I began a discussion of that poem in "The Coach" forum and those of you who'd like to join that discussion as well, are welcome to read and comment in thread. 

Eric also has posted a poem there for discussion: "The Betrothed" by Kipling

The more we stay involvd in reading and discussing poetry, the better prepared we are to become better writers IMHO. That is why I love the way Eric approaches his "lessons" --- with examples and the analysis of classic poems (sometimes, his own ~smile~).

Norm 
  
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dericlee
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Re: Styles of Sonnet...the Petrarchan.
Reply #14 - Feb 27th, 2006 at 6:20pm
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You think biblical associations come too easy for you, Yvonne?  I'm a former minister...major in Divinity Studies.  

However, I also took a minor in psyche, and as Freud once said, Norm, "Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar."  Milton was a wealthy man already, by inheritance, and owing to a treatise he had written on the rights of subjects to depose and put to death an unworthy king, he was a Minister in Oliver Cromwell's government  (Latin Secretary for foreigh affairs) when he went blind: he had secretaries, and managed to complete Paradise Lost and to begin and complete Paradise Regained while sightless.   His writing doesn't seem to have suffered.

What he considered his 'good works' was his continual pamphleteering for reform of the Church of England along less ritualistic lines, as well as essentially agitating for Church recognition of matters like 'divorce for irreconcolable differences', and in this capacity as well as his work for Cromwell, he did a lot of travelling and meeting with Church officials and foreign dignitaries.  He often complained bitterly that it was only with vast difficulty that he could obtain a true impression of the people with whom he dealt when he could not see their eyes.

Moving on (darn, y'all keep me hopping like a frog on a hot rock!) Tim, I've never read the book you mentioned earlier.  I first started using references about poetry when I discovered the online Glossary I linked for y'all elsewhere.  I learned about poetry from reading poets...not from texts about poetry.  See, the various names of the poetic feet are not necessary knowledge to write metered verse...but they are VERY handy when it comes to discussing it!  I don't think in terms of anapests and trochees, I think in terms of daDUMS first...then translate that into the terminology when discussing.  

(Norm tells me I'm a teacher, but the truth is simply that I'm a poet who wishes strongly to see the art of poetry not be lost in this age where eight of ten rejection slips I see tell me that 'real' poetry doesn't rhyme anymore.)

As to the iambics of Browning's poem, y'all might remember that I mentioned elsewhere that the modern sonnet (and by modern I mean "post Elizabethan") is often considered 'rigid' if the iambic is pure.  Here's the gig, though...

We don't want to get into that yet!

It's devilshly hard to show how to determie when and in what way lapses in the iambic are permissable or beneficial to a sonnet before you know how to keep the iambic pure.  There are times when replacement with a trochee or a spondee can enhance the flow and times when it jumps out like a sore thumb (and makes you flinch just as hard!)...but here's one thing I was trying to get across when I talked about stripping the line breaks and reading the poem as prose...

Poets who begin their writing in free verse become accustomed to seeing a line-break as indicative of a pause.  This is not the case with stanzaic poetry!  This is WHY there is a defined difference between 'end-stop' and 'enjambment'!  

Those of you who found the Browning sonnet a bumpy read, I'd like you to go back and read it again as if it were prose.  If you must, then actually take the poem into Wordpad and strip the linebreaks!  Lay it out in paragraphs instead of stanzas, and read it that way.  

The point...Don't try to impose the rhythm on the read!  (The reverse is also true...don't try to impose the meter on the write, choose words that create the meter!  That's the biggest thing I'll be trying to help you get a handle on during the discussion of meter in this class.)  

I need a favor, y'all.  Would EVERYONE who's screen-name is not how you would like to be addressed (which of course already exempts Norm and Alan) please go back to your intro in the Roll Call thread, or go create one if you haven't already, and tell me how to address you!  Yvonne, you don't have to, you've been signing your posts.  

Essentially...I don't know who I'm talking to well enough yet, and if you want to be addressed by name, I need to know it, okay?
« Last Edit: Oct 3rd, 2009 at 9:59pm by dericlee »  
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Re: Styles of Sonnet...the Petrarchan.
Reply #13 - Feb 27th, 2006 at 5:57pm
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And i am neither and clearly i need a little more association with the bible.  Tongue
(Especially if i am going to read Milton).



I'm really only familiar with the gospel readings and such that they offer in Mass on the weekends--but I had a Jewish Humanities Professor that made us study the bible for his class.  It was mostly boring.  But the bible does have beautiful, poetic language in Old Testament--so in a sense it is reading poetry from on High Smiley
  
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Re: Styles of Sonnet...the Petrarchan.
Reply #12 - Feb 27th, 2006 at 8:38am
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And i am neither and clearly i need a little more association with the bible.  Tongue
(Especially if i am going to read Milton).
  
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Re: Styles of Sonnet...the Petrarchan.
Reply #11 - Feb 27th, 2006 at 5:05am
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Yvonne,For YOU it's easy 


A little too easy, I might add--I really thought it was just me thinking too religiously or something, and then you came along and confirmed what I thought was my own weird diagnosis, lol!
  
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Re: Styles of Sonnet...the Petrarchan.
Reply #10 - Feb 27th, 2006 at 5:00am
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Yvonne,

For YOU it's easy --- for me (a nice Jewish guy observing his faith) I have to know from research LOL.

Norm
  
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Re: Styles of Sonnet...the Petrarchan.
Reply #9 - Feb 27th, 2006 at 4:52am
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I hope this post was as helpful to the two of you.


Very much so, thank you! Smiley  I do have a couple more questions (if you don't mind), mainly to do with meter.  To me, it sounds like some of the lines in Browning's poem don't flow real well, like she stresses the beginning of some lines and not the others.  Lines 2-5 and 10 just don't seem to follow the same rhythm?  Is it just me? Undecided   

And Norm ~ I guess the gospels have been so ground into my head from the time I was a kid till now, but I love what you have to say about "that one talent which is death to hide" alluding to the parable of the talents.  I was simply reading it that way, anyway--Amazing!
  
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