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Terence
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Re: Purgatory
Reply #5 - Aug 31st, 2006 at 4:12pm
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Hi Tim,

   No problem with your response time to any of these posts, you obviously have a very full life. I know I should have read more literature. I too, only read a portion of Paradise Lost, in college, so I couldn't make that relationship. Or any, really, though I knew there was something deeper to your poem.

     Cheers, Terence
  
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Tim
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Re: Purgatory
Reply #4 - Aug 31st, 2006 at 5:37am
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Terence,

i am so sorry for taking this long to respond to your fine crit. 
On a whole, you're right about misses on syntax.
The missing part you have is that this piece journeys into surreal. Angels (or Valkyrie, whatever) come as he 'inhales the slugs' (sorry about that missed queue). 
i didn't want to spell it out, because the N could be viewed as an avenging angel himself and either interpretation which was offered on poets.com (where i used to belong to) works just fine. One writer thought of a portion of Paradise Lost and Lucifer defying God. i haven't read more than a few pages of that piece and don't know if that is accurate or not.

Thanks again for the crit and patience. i think if i am feeling particularily masochistic, i might try and rewrite this into (relatively) strict metre and see what it sounds like. IP probably since that is what i am most comfortable with, but trochaic is tempting (enter Poe).

~tim
« Last Edit: Aug 31st, 2006 at 5:37am by Tim »  
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Re: Purgatory
Reply #3 - Aug 25th, 2006 at 4:15pm
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Hi, Tim, let me try to oblige.

First, it seems to me to be awkward free-verse as the sometimes/sometimes not pattern of end rhyme is off-putting. Imo the use of devices such as internal rhyme, assonance, etc., and especially cadence, should define it as free-verse and forget the near-adherence to end rhymes. 

I stand a yard inside the front lawn, 
with the rouge coloured glow of dawn, 
paints my coffee and cream coloured cheeks, 
in the pungence of rage that reeks. 
 
Spelling of ‘pungency’, ‘pungence’ is not yet a word. L3 what is doing the ‘paints’? I would expect the dawn to be ‘painting’, if that is the case, and dawn wouldn’t need a comma. In fact, many of the lines don’t need commas as they are a natural continuance of the previous line.

havoc behind me-   
   
Swirling red spotlights that showcase, 
the displayed wasteland of darkened hovels, 
surrounding the master's white-pillared gates, 
porticullis that keeps away the desperate grovellers. 

I don’t care for ‘displayed’ since the hovels are ‘showcase’d. No comma after ‘hovels’.
Spelling of ‘portcullis’. The word is also awkward and should either be ‘gates and portcullis that keep’ or ‘gates that keep’; not ‘keeps’. Spelling of ‘grovelers’.


stiffening breeze-   

I understood the relevance of some of these one-liners, not this one.

A naked cherub holds an offering dish, 
producing rainbows of scintillating water, 
holding well meant currency of unresolved wishes, 
tythes to the fickle gods of abundance and slaughter. 
 
I would prefer a hyphen after ‘wishes’ rather than a comma.

people fall to their knees-   

   
While soldiers scream frantic orders, 
cordoning off the growing disorder, 
wind carries thick smoke to the sky, 
where it coagulates into the briar of night. 
 
No comma L3.
I feel as though ‘while’ should, at least, precede the cordoning rather than the screaming. As it stands it doesn’t flow naturally for me.
I’m wondering about ‘briar’. The definitions are a tangled thorny bush and a pipe made of the wood. These definitions don’t seem to fit as well as, say ‘brazier’.


loyal servants begging-   
   
Tossing the empty can of gasoline aside, 
agitation from beating wings arise, 
my heels from the grass in their thunderous updraft, 
of falling feathers and holy wrath. 
 
This whole stanza loses me with its flow. It sounds rather like a flock of birds is disturbed by the N but is clumsily stated, imho, free-verse should help.
   
shotgun pumps slide on fresh grease-   
   
Conflagration consumes the manor whole, 
as I raise my hands proffering the flame, 
This cruel lord that smelted the people's souls, 
then left the regulus of their lives for his gain. 
 
I like the furnace analogies here, very creative.

filled in inner peace-   
   
Soothed in the knowledge that my armour 
is without a chink and blessed by karma, 
impulsively, I laugh at the uniformed men and wink, 
breathing metallic slugs that forage through my body. 
 
I feel as though ‘breathing’ should be qualified by the timeline, such as ‘while breathing’, ‘then breath’ but perhaps that’s too nit-picky. Not sure about the comma after ‘impulsively’ either.

the ground slips away with ease-   
   
Warm blood rains onto the manicured grass,   
gasping for testamentary words to   
incite the cowardly herds into hallowed rebellion,   
and grasp that their eternity is now.   
 
This, in free-verse as Norm said, is clearly saying what you want to. No restrictions but pleasing to the ear with its internal near-rhymes. The cadence could be a little smoother. For instance, L1 ‘rains onto’ would read better to me as ‘wets’.


These are my observations after your explanation and Norm’s crit. Not much to go on but something may stick. You did very well with the theme if this is one of your first poems. Based on your current work, I would guess you have accepted the free-verse concerns by now.

   Terence
  
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Tim
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Re: Purgatory
Reply #2 - Aug 21st, 2006 at 11:31pm
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Hi Everyone,

If there is some poet out there looking to crit something from the deep end, i proffer this piece. It has been a favourite of mine since its inception and i would like to make it better. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks.
~tim

P.S. Don't let my response to Norm scare you, i knew i was playing with the big boys and came loaded.  Wink
  
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Re: Purgatory
Reply #1 - Jan 24th, 2006 at 7:15am
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Ah, ever the english teacher. i sense that you and i will be having many a discussion about metre. Allow me to clear up a few things. Regarding metre, i have never practiced it. When i change rhyme scheme it is to loosen up the poem and actually hold the readers attention by not giving them the same expected 'footfalls' of rhythm. i like to experiment with sound and see if a change in rhyme will yield a quickening of the reader for specific stanzas/lines or slow down the reader and allow the words to sink in. This is my work in free verse. Perhaps some would say it borders on free form, but as you can tell i do use the tools of the free verse trade (ie. near rhyme, internal rhyme, assonance and alliteration). i am currently reading technique books with regards to poetry and metre. We shall see where this takes me. 
Thank you for the time you took in going through this, i will try and respond here to explain what i was going for. 
By not looking at the theme the corrections you made for stanza 5 (or 3 if you omit the singular lines)
"holding well meant currency of unresolved wishes"
'Unresolved wishes' refers (indirectly) to the grovellers. They are not the main character's coins. When one sees a fountain it is custom to pitch money and hope for luck/forturne/whatever. Here i am going more for forturne. The grovellers have pitched money into the fountain of the 'master' and still have found no hope or luck with their own fortunes. The subsequent line holds an older spelling of 'tithes' which i found on dictionary.reference.com. This and other alternate spellings are added to induce colour and vibrance to words. Sometimes i want the reader to linger on a word for a moment and think about it before moving on. "Colour" serves that purpose because it stresses the colours of this poem (and incidentally is how i normally write the word, alas i am trying to work that out of my system). Back to the poem.
'fickle gods of abundance and slaughter'. This is pantheon reference to the idea that gods could hold multiple areas of control within the human universe. Taking and giving (life, money, etc.). That is what is being portrayed. Why does the master have abundance? But not the others. Fickle. There is no rhyme or reason to why some are successful and why others are not.  There is also an insinuation that the lords hold life and death over the serfs/poor in this case. 
Stanza 11 or 6 without single lines inbetween. 'The' people. Yes, this should be there because it yields an almost manifesto statement as to why the lord is being destroyed. As if it comes down from on high. It lumps the main character with the viewpoint of the grovellers. What he does is in retribution to the master's indifference of the poor. Here is where it all becomes unilateral in viewpoint. The message i was not as concerned with but, interpretations are always welcome.
Finally let me touch on the single standing lines interpersed throughout the tetrameters.
Look on this poem as two intertwined segments. Simplified, the tetrameters deal with the main character, they are more scenic in view and lay the ground work for what and why. The singular lines offer the reader the reaction of those outside of the manor as the tetrameters explain the everything (well not everything but...). i was attempting to go for a film short. Cut first tetrameter shows main character, now focus over shoulder and you see a mass of people moving about yelling/shouting/whatever the reader would like to assign to the word havoc. Cut swirling red spotlights could be the flames or the lights of the emergency response vehicles. These lights show the surroundings. I think you get the point. i hope this helps the theme a little and the ideas. In the end, poetry, for me, is still about experimentation.  Yes, i am reading your post on poetry 101. Thanks again for the time you took into looking into this. 

addendum: i was under the impression that the history of free verse (and please correct me if i am wrong) was created and/or popularized by the French to 'take the foot of metre out of the butt of poetry' (yes i just said that Grin) Therefore the instruments of metre were still used (ie assonance, rhyme, etc) and now since the modernist (Sylvia Plath, Ezra Pound) we have occasion to loosen a little more allow for near/off rhyme. What i am saying is that by breaking a set pattern of rhyme does this not fall into the category of free verse, more so than say free form? Would love to hear your response and for the third time i thank you.  ???
« Last Edit: Jan 24th, 2006 at 6:25pm by Tim »  
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Normpo
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Re: Purgatory
Jan 24th, 2006 at 3:01am
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PURGATORY 31December2005  - azurepoetry 

 
I stand a yard inside the front lawn, 
with the rouge coloured glow of dawn, 
paints my coffee and cream coloured cheeks, 
in the pungence of rage that reeks. pungency
 
havoc behind me- 
 
  you switched rhyme schemes and the consistent tetrameter from here on in --- purpose??
Swirling red spotlights that showcase, 
the displayed wasteland of darkened hovels, 
surrounding the master's white-pillared gates, 
porticullis that keeps away the desperate grovellers. delete "the" - portcullis
 
stiffening breeze- 
 
A naked cherub holds an offering dish, 
producing rainbows of scintillating water, 
holding well meant currency of unresolved wishes, 
  holding well-meant currency - an unresolved wish,
tythes to the fickle gods of abundance and slaughter. tithes ??
  tithes the fickle gods of abundant slaughter.
people fall to their knees- 
 
While soldiers scream frantic orders, 
cordoning off the growing disorder, 
wind carries thick smoke to the sky, 
where it coagulates into the briar of night. 
the above and below stanza  goes back to tetrameter and an A-A-B-B "near-rhyme" scheme -- I am trying to find reasons for these changes and cannot see the relevance -- it tends to throw the reader off IMHO
 
loyal servants begging- 
 
Tossing the empty can of gasoline aside, 
agitation from beating wings arise, 
my heels from the grass in their thunderous updraft, 
of falling feathers and holy wrath. 
 
shotgun pumps slide on fresh grease- 
 
A-B-A-B  in near rhyme ---
Conflagration consumes the manor whole, 
as I raise my hands proffering the flame, 
This cruel lord that smelted the people's souls, again "the" can be lost
then left the regulus of their lives for his gain. 
 
filled in inner peace- 
 
and back again to  A-A- (In near rhyme) C-D - I am so confused ~smile~
Soothed in the knowledge that my armour 
is without a chink and blessed by karma, 
impulsively, I laugh at the uniformed men and wink, 
breathing metallic slugs that forage through my body. 
 
the ground slips away with ease- 
 
Free Verse at last, Free Verse at last, thank G-d, Free verse at last --- just kidding with you.
Warm blood rains onto the manicured grass, 
gasping for testamentary words to 
incite the cowardly herds into hallowed rebellion, 
and grasp that their eternity is now. 


I know I haven't spent a lot of time critiquing the theme, purpose and message in this piece. I focused on poetics a bit because I think they distract more than enhance this read. Please understand, I write more than half my poems in strict forms with meter, rhyme and the rest. This piece, even when using what appears to be a meter, has too many bumps in too many lines.

Now all that was the "bad news" --- the "good news" is that I love the imagery -- especially the red/rage, colored cheeks, rainbow, flame, even to the subtle "coagulates" which intones (red) blood, etc. Your descriptions are very well pointed, often vivid. You choose hard-hitting adjectives that blew me away: smelted -- souls, updraft - feathers. So I am a fan already. 

I may come back and offer up take on the theme, but this one requires a few more readings.

This was very much enjoyed despite my critical input. I also like and appreciate the way you critique others. Bravo!

Norm
  
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