There is a lot of terrible free verse out there, but also a lot of bad R&M. Bad R&M requires more effort and forethought than bad free verse does.

Bad free verse is just self-indulgence, but bad R&M can be a good poetic work-out, even if it sounds lousy.

Even people who consider themselves more suited to free verse should at least attempt R&M. I used to only write free verse, but now I'm trying to learn R&M (finding it difficult though). I like the challenge, and I think if I stick at it, I'll become a better poet.

Some of my sonnets and ballads are so bad that I might not want to show them to anyone, but I'm still glad I try to write them.

I write free verse so I'll hop on this train of thought.

I appreciate everything you're saying, Martin.  Free verse should be more than prose with line breaks and there are many writers who don't bother to learn anything about the craft which makes some of the rest of us look bad.  However, I've read just as many rhyming poems that smack of laziness.  A rhyme may be more readily recognized as a poem from a technical standpoint, but I've read many R & M poems that do no more for me than some free verse.  IMO, poems laden with cliches and simple rhymes are just as lazy if the poet doesn't exhibit an attitude of wanting to improve and thinks their poem is fine just like it is.
 
I think we poets, free-versers and R & Mers alike, have a responsibility to ourselves to put forth our best effort in learning more about the craft and how our given style fits in.  Free versers can learn something from R & Mers, but the opposite is also true.  There are many poets who write (and flourish) in both styles which proves that both can lend themselves to the other.  

I write mainly free verse now because I am able to express myself more effectively in that style than in rhyme and meter.  I've tried (and I repeat tried) to write rhyme and meter poetry.  I do 'okay' with rhyme, but I cannot get the meter thing.  It feels unnatural to me (and I repeat to me).  A few have tried to help me write in IP and I never wrote so much as one line of correct meter.  When they'd try to show me the 'correct' meter, it sounded 'off' to me.  So I was basically told if IP (or whatever the chosen meter) sounded 'off' to me, then I was doing myself and the poem more harm than good.  If poetry doesn't sound natural to the poet writing it, then it most certainly won't sound natural to the reader.  That made sense to me so I've been writing mostly free verse ever since.  I will admit that some of my poems could be prose with line breaks, but I wouldn't be offended if you told me that because I am learning along with the rest of you.  I'm still experienting with free-verse and how my style fits in.  I am still studying poetic devices and reading poetry (classic and contemporary alike) to try and learn more about the craft.  I didn't master rhyme and meter, but I tried and by trying, I learned that it is not the form best suited to my style of writing.  I still try it now and then, but to no avail.  I guess the point is though, that I hope people don't think I am smacked with laziness.  If you think my poetry is prose with line breaks, that's fine, but know that I wasn't being lazy when I wrote it, I was simply trying my best to write a 'good' free verse poem and possibly failed.  I do not claim that my poetry is perfect, but I do exhibit (or try to) a willingness to learn why you or others think my poetry is not living up to its potential.  

So, in conclusion, I think that 'some' free-versers aren't the only lazy ones who don't put forth an effort to learn about the craft.  I think there are just as many rhymers who need to study the concept and devices of poetry.  If you want to sit at home and write your own style of poetry, that's fine, more power to you.  However, if you participate in a 'class' (or community or whatever you want to call it), then you have a responsibility, IMO, to learn the math and not take shortcuts by using a calculator.  You're only cheating yourself.  Maybe one person counts on his fingers and toes while another counts in his head, but it's the fact that they are learning their own method to find an answer that counts.  The person using the calculator is the one who will never really learn anything and is cheating themselves of the ultimate learning experience.

Thanks for the mind stirring discussion, Martin.

debskatz wrote on Jan 1^st, 1970 at 12:00am:


Deb—

My point is this: Poetry depends on the ability to effectively use all of the poetic devices available to the poet. To many folks—too many folks—free verse seems to be a shortcut way of writing “poetry” without first learning how to gain some degree of facility with poetic devices. So, they plop some “feelings” down on a page, form arbitrary line breaks, and say “See? I wrote a poem!” I say “Garblefarb! You have not written a poem. You have done an emotional dump that you have fooled yourself into believing is a poem, because you never bothered to learn a darn thing about the use of poetic devices. You think that the ‘free’ in ‘free verse’ means that there are no requirements for writing poetry, and that anything you write can be called ‘poetry.’” R&M poetry really forces you to gain a better handle of the use of poetic devices, and, therefore, improves your ability to use them to create real poetry.

True free verse indeed does make extensive use of poetic devices. And, yes, I know of a number of folks who can write “real” free verse, but have never mastered R&M. But they are the execption, rather than the rule, IMO. The more mastery you have of the use of poetics devices, the better your free verse will be. It’s as simple as that. And learning how to write R&M poetry really will improve your skills in the use of poetic devices.

-Martin

BTW: “IMO” = “In My Opinion,” and “IMNSHO“ = “In My Not So Humble Opinion.” These are just a couple of the numerous shorthand notations folks use in cyberspace. See, for example, 
Netiquette Smilies & Shorthand.

hi martin,

yeah, i knew that you posted more on the first forum, but still not as much as you post on these (caboose).  i remember this thread from that forum.

i'm not an experienced poet so I cannot offer "expert" opinions.  i do agree that poets who write free verse need to have some knowledge of how to write r&m poems first.   

but i do not believe that they have to have the extent of knowledge that you are advocating.  it's like saying that no one should play the piano until they completely understand all the scales and key signatures and music theory.

yet i saw an 8 year old boy, who had been born blind and mentally retarded, play Beethoven.

and surely there are those poets among us who can write free verse without having learned all the essential knowledge of r&m.

if everyone waited to know all there is to know about r&m before they tried their hand at free verse, very little free verse would be around and the poetry community, as a whole, would not be as rich and varied as it is now.

deb

p.s. please forgive my ignorance and tell me what IMO & IMNSHO mean.  THANKS!

reading your comments above, i looked up picassa paintings to confirm what i believe about him.  i can't stand his paintings.  i guess i like them about as well as you seem to like "free verse" poetry.

i'm a terrible painter, i've tried.  my ex, however, was and is quite good and i learned some about painting through her.

and i'm here to tell ya, there are some of his paintings that i could do just as well as he did them.  you simply will not convince me otherwise.

and i know there is no way that i could convince you of the value of free verse, so no point in trying.

i try writing a little of both.  i'm no great talent but i'm learning.

which actually reminds me to ask why you do not post on the other forums.  you have posted a total (so far) of 24 times, yet only one of those did you post and give comments to someone's poem.  and that was to norm who really doesn't need any help.

you have a lot of knowledge to share, martin.  yet you have only shared it mostly in this forum and in a very general way.

why not get out into the "real" world, the forums where poetry is actually posted for critiques and share your knowledge there.

i saw one of your posts where you were fussin' cause the caboose was not popular.  hey, if you can't bring the people to the mountain, take the mountain to the people and i'd be willin' to bet that you could get some good (learning) arguments going.

c-ya!
deb